42 replies to this topic

[rhudeboye]

Joe- correct! Its that ol' Reggae term w/ a differnt spelling. Has nothing to do w/ actually being rude but when ever I give a direct answer or speak my mind everyone says the same thing. That I deserve the name. SIGH!

[Greimann]

You could always change it to Badboye ......

[ether_joe]

whacha gone do?



ah yes, scream away at high speed in your P-Car

[rhudeboye]

Man has this thread gotten off topic!

[whakiewes]

I don't think the prices are right. Most Porsche owners fear the backyard mechanic, but why can't I do my own work? A head rebuild isn't going to cost $3k, because your paying some mechanic $100+/hr for 12-15hrs of work, on top of the machine shop work and parts. My 5-cylinder 20V Audi head is currently getting reworked. I am in $4/valve guide ($80), $100 entire engine gasket set ($300 is the current rate I found an entire gasket set for the 968), $21 per lifter ($420), $187.40 for the machine work (all 20 valve guides, bead blasting, 3-angle valve job, reassembly), $60 for parts for my porting work and polishing, $30 timing belt, $25 for other two belts, $70 timing belt cam gear, 12 new head bolts ($60), and 27 new oil pan bolts at some .48C each. In a quick search through the vendors I used, all the parts, including variocam pads, chains, tensioners, etc for the 968 are all available. They are not OEM parts, nor are they through the dealer, but if I am going to do this work every 10k miles, I don't think OEM is going to make the slightest difference. Furthermore, I spent another $100+ on random shipping for parts from England as finding certain 20v parts in the country is very hard. I bought the last timing belt cam gear in the country. I don't see any parts needed that aren't available in America for the 968. Is the complexity stopping anyone from working on the 968? I don't think so by any means. There are certain parts that aren't tried and trued yet, such as aftermarket pistons in standard Alusil bores (thousands of other engines it has worked, so I don't see why it won't now). Is there a need to pay for a $1000 knifeedged crank from Lindsey or Broadfoot? $300 for full knifeedging and balancing through Flatlander racing...I have never had a single fault with one of their crankshafts. I think just like BMW's have a "cost a lot to work on" theory, Porsche's maintain the same standing. I can easily afford to have any of my cars worked on by other people, but its useless spending when I have the time and knowledge to do the work myself.

With that said, there are certain 968 items I don't think I could/would want to tackle. What is the cost of the work to do the pinion bearing, not pull the tranny and reinstall the tranny, but just the work alone inside the transmission? I don't know that I would want to work on that as I have attempted to rebuild a manual in my day, and its no easy task.

[flash]

the point is well taken - the prices i listed do presume a shop doing the work - this is the norm

a common mistake though is to think that if you do the work yourself, you are getting off cheaper - i don't know about you, but my time is worth real money - i do a lot of stuff myself, but it's only because i can't find anybody who can do it the way i want - it would be much cheaper for me to pay somebody else to do the work - i charge for my time based on what i think it is worth for me not to be doing something i would rather be doing - we all do that when we negotiate salaries - this should be no different - factor in the cost of your time, (time spent not making money or enjoying yoruself) and you will find that the numbers come in line very quickly

while a agree that a good amount of this work can be done wtithout the out of pocket expense of upcharges from shops, there are a few things to consider that would adjust your pricing

you should do a 5, not a 3 angle grind - 3 angle grinds are fine for lower compression engines, but will wear and pit more quickly at higher revs with higher compressions and temps - they also do not seat as well - a 5 angle grind (or radius grind) will cost about double what a 3 angle will

i would NEVER reuse valve guides - i know a lot of shops will knurl them, but i would not do that on any performance car - the life expenctancy is just too short, and they don't seal as well

i sort of agree on the crank, and that is the first i've heard of it, but, i'm sure the price of the crank includes magnafluxing and nitrating (i can't imagine doing one of these without that) - that alone is good for at least 200 bucks - i agree that 1000 is high though, and would likely send it to my guy and have the whole thing done for about 600

as for belts, ABSOLUTELY use the OEM specced belts - we have seen way too many failures from cheap aftermarket belts - that does not mean you need to get them from a dealer though - Gates makes the belts for porsche for this car - you can spec the gates number and get them at a discount

but again, shops won't generally let you provide your own parts, so you are really at their mercy - and maybe it is a porsche thing, but of the 40 or so 968 owners i've met, about a half dozen do their own work, and even then, they send some stuff out

bobby hall (arguably the best guy on hese boxes) charges 600 for the pinion bearing - parts, including the bearing, are extra, as is shipping

[Greimann]

a common mistake though is to think that if you do the work yourself, you are getting off cheaper - i don't know about you, but my time is worth real money ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here on Earth, nobody gives me a penny for NOT working on my car, nor could I be earning any cash on a Saturday afternoon that would normally be used for a clutch job.

This may be a valid point for accounting or tax purposes, but you can't buy a bag of groceries with it.

[flash]

i work at all kinds of odd hours and days - so does ayn - in fact, she has not yet been home from work since she left yesterday morning - i've been up all night working too - i am hoping to see her this afternoon, but she'll be at it again at 6am

most people i know work on saturday (enertainment thing) - saturday is an excellent day to make money in most other businesses too - really only in the corporate world is the work week monday through friday, and not in a lot of that anymore either - i can't remember the last saturday any of the attorneys at ayn's office had off

even if you are not working though, your personal time has value - would you rather spend it laboring, or playing? the value of that time gets more precious as i get older - i find it much more cost effective to pay someone else to do that work, especially when it's only 100 bucks an hour

[josephsc]

Don't forget, some of us wrench not to save money, but we enjoy tinkering with our cars. I'm hoping to get the brakes taken care of this weekend and I'm looking forward to it! OTOH, I don't like working on my truck -- so I'm more than happy to send the work out on it.

[Greimann]

Arbite Macht Frie

[orphanowner]

Arbite Macht Frie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know about work setting me free (gruesome reference really), but quality garage time is a great stress reliever and like Flash, I don't trust anybody's work but my own.

[flash]

hey - don't get me wrong - sometimes i like to do stuff too - mods though, and not repairs - i also find it occasionally cathartic to tinker - i just have to consider that more like vacation, where i am paying for the priviledge to relax

[RPM]

I always get a bit concerned when a new member to the forum expresses a desire to find a less expensive car. Porsches are expensive cars. I just spent a quick $2400.00 on my 968 (timing belt/power steering/water pump/tires). Unless you are one ace mechanic there are no inexpensive Porsches.

My advice? Spend more money on a car with lower miles, a solid maintenance history, and a sterling PPI. Otherwise Flash, for all of his occasional "the sky is falling' concerns, is absolutely right. You will spend a quick $2k-$5k in the first year making a 9000 dollar 968 right and roadworthy. If you can't spend buy a lower miles 968 then go with a nice S2. They are great cars and are well under $9k for a version with less than 100k. They cost almost the same to maintain but you will get a better one for the money.

[flash]

lol - uh - thanks - i don't mean to be the voice of doom, but rather to shed a little reality light on the car - the bottom line is that, regardless of mileage, you need to commit 20 grand for the first 5 years (including purchase) and another 5k if it's a cab, in order to get a decent car - those of you who doubt it, pull out yoru reciepts - compare them with others - the average is just what i am saying - some more - some less - spend it now or spend it later - it's all the same in the end

i guess it's all relative though - personally i find these cars incredibly inexpensive - think about it - what else could you get for 20-25k that would stand up to it as an overall package?

even at the insane extent to which i've gone, at a bit over 60k, i can't think of a less expensive car that does what this one does AND has the exclusivity and style

and it's a lot less expensive than pretty much anything italian - i considered a ferrari, and will still get another one, but the purchase price left little of my intiial 60k budget for prep, and i wanted a toy to tinker with

[midblue]

Hey flash.....are you the voice of doom?

Ron
94 coupe/6 speed

[ether_joe]

Hey flash.....are you the voice of doom?

Ron
94 coupe/6 speed

and if so can you speak to the weather gods just to make sure everything's straight for tomorrow.

[flash]

they aren't taking my calls since that whole chicken little thing

[SILVY968]

When you look at what you get new from Porsche for $100,000 a $15,000 - $20,000 968 with a few thou to get it up to speed is a deal. Even if stuff needs replacing, it's still less money.

Remember, these are European hand built sports cars and not disposable transportation cars.
" there is no compromise"

[RPM]

Remember, these are European hand built sports cars and not disposable transportation cars.
" there is no compromise"

Exactly my point. There is rarely an inexpensive path to Porsche ownership. You also run into the danger of 'deferred maintenance,' where previous owners have put off needed repairs to save money and then sell the car. In a Variocam car this can be scary.

Higher mileage cars will probably cost more cash over time to maintain. In the end they are rarely cheaper than a lower mileage car with less issues to begin with. Of course if you can do a significant amount of the work yourself this equation changes a bit.

Bruce Anderson's mantra, 'buy the best car you can afford,' is always good advice. A great 944S2 with 75,000 miles selling for $8k is most likely a better bet than a 150,000 mile 968 selling for $9k.

[flash]

perhaps i'm just used to spending 15k every year maintaining a car like this - i've been at it now for a very long time like that (had i have saved the money, i could now have almost anything i wanted) - at least one new motor every year has historically been a given for me - the idea that this one can go a couple of years is amazing - that saves me a bundle

i just don't think this car is expensive at all - i just spent almost as much on the yukon as i have on the 968, and it won't ever be anywere near the car - same thing with the bmw - without the mods, my 968 would be an expenditure of a bit over 30k - that's really nothing, relative to what i was spending on similar toys

i think you have to look at it in the correct context - you can't compare it to a toyota supra or a mazda rx7 or some other similar "performance" car - look at what shape the cars are in now at the same age - you have to put it in the league of an entry level ferrari or something like that - in that context, this car is really very cheap - a halfway decent 308 will set you back 30k plus - and the 968 will run rings around it

in that context though, you have to presume that you will spend 20-25k over the first 5 years on this car - that's the reality - that may be expensive to some, but look at what you get for the money

one does have to make decisions based on what they can afford

i'm drooling over the new muira, but that is a LONG way off for me

if 20-25k sounds high, move on to something else - buying a cheap car, and especially one with miles on it, and then hoping to avoid spending money on it, is just not reality