32 replies to this topic

[flash]

no - you're right - a sports car is:

2 seats
convertible
manual trans
less than 8 cylinders
no intrinsic value beyond pure fun

beyond that, there are sports coupes (hardtop versions, but must have a trunk to be a coupe, etc), sports exotics (ferrari, etc), sport sedans (3 series, etc)....

GT cars are cars like the 968 hardtop, that are sport oriented, but more utilitarian in execution, and more suited to sport touring

anyway, tips are great, and i love the white one we have, but they do generally sell for less

[Langley968]

What I love about this site is that we can get serious info when we need it AND on the other hand we can also joke around without anyone getting to "ruffled"!

I love my cab, but that top is a pain in the "you know what" to operate! I was impressed with how well it protected us from the torrential downpour we experienced on the way home from Escape 2010!

"a sports car IS a manual" - I fully agree!

[ds968]

" that's only because it takes you an hour to get your hair right before you leave the house, and you don't want to mess that up "

don't 968 cabs have wind screens that are designed to protect my hairclub for men piece from being displaced ?!


not sure the " a sports car is a manual " applies anyomre in today's world when everything comes with a friggin' paddle shifter. that's not, and never will be a real shifter in my book..

Edited by ds968, 15 September 2010 - 09:38 AM.

[968Syncro]

About: "a sports car is: 2 seats, convertible, manual trans, less than 8 cylinders, no intrinsic value beyond pure fun"

Well if we consider the state of the art in sports cars, that would be the LeMans winners, perhaps for the last 40 years.
http://en.wikipedia....Le_Mans_winners

Most have 1 seat, about 1/2 are closed top, more recently all are automatic transmission, and many have 8 cylinders or more, and their main intrinsic value is marketing (not pure fun).

Objection! Roland, your post is argumentative! Sustained!

Roland

[968Syncro]

Ok, so a couple of more views.

1. About CAB vs Coupe.

Jeff said, and I think others chimed in, that Cabs sell for 10-20% more. Well I sure would like to see the data on that. In any case, this sample of cars-for-sale does not support that claim. The data from this sample clearly indicates that both cabs and coupes are equal in value. I updated the one chart (here) using a power curve trendline to see if it adds some clarity, but the results are the same.

Statistically in this sample:
- Cabs: 24, average sale price: $15,374
- Coupes: 11, average sale price: $15,550

 Untitled.jpg   35.43KB   0 downloads

2. About tips vs manual transmission

I went through the listings and captured that information in the data.

Statistically in this sample:
- Tips: 16, average sale price: $15,715
- Manual: 19, average sale price: $15,189

Here is a visual on tips vs manual. Most likely we would conclude there is no difference between tip vs manual, with small price advantage for tips on average, but slight advantage for manuals in the high price range.

 Untitled2.jpg   32.61KB   0 downloads

So.... now where does that leave us? (need help here)

- first point must be to question is this sample is truly representative of "all 968 sales". I am not sure how to answer that question, but it is a valid one, since so many experienced forum members claim that cabs are more valuable than coupes, and manuals are more valuable than tips. We probably need more data to confirm one way or the other. In the absence of other data, given the recent state of this sample, we might want to consider it more representative than people's memory or intuition from the past.

- I have a theory why tip cars are not lower in price. The reason is that many may be in better condition than a peer 968 with a manual transmission. Let's assume our intuition is right, the tip cars may be owned by people who are: gentle drivers, occasional drivers, do not track their car, do not install performance enhancements, etc. The result may actually be a car that is less worn and generally in better condition that a comparable 968 with a manual transmission. So, on the other hand, we can argue that this is an unfair correlation between condition of the car and the presence of the tip, but at some level the data may make it obvious that a "tip car" is no less valuable than a manual transmission car (at least in this sample).

Other comments or interpretations?

Roland

updated sheet for inspection:  valuation_1009_b.xls   228.5KB   1 downloads

[Cloud9...68]

I can understand the dependence of price on mileage, but I would personally treat mileage very conditionally. I wouldn't hesitate to pay top dollar for a higher mileage (120K+) 968 which had records showing it had recently had ALL the major maintenance done, including head rebuild, rod bearings, all seals and gaskets, water pump, variocam chain and pads, of course belts, alignment, all fluids replaced, etc., AND had ALWAYS been kept in a garage (although this one is hard to prove; you're dependent on the owner's word, and the general condition of the paint and interior). A 16-year-old car with 30,000 miles that had been exposed to the elements most of its life wouldn't interest me at any price.

[968Syncro]

I forgot one more thing. There is a chance that the 968 Cabs will become much more valuable with time. That has certainly happened to a lot of sports cars. In many cases, like double or triple the value of the coupe form.

356: cabs are much more valuable.
Jaguar XKE, no comparison, the coupes are much lower prices.
MGB. The MGB GT is a really attractive design, but the cab is worth more.
Mid 60s Corvette? Not sure if the cabs are more valuable, maybe a bit.
911 (starting with the SC): I look at prices for 911s, do not have the feeling that cabs are more highly valued.
944? Suppose we could compare the 944S2 Cab to the 944 TurboS - probably about even in price.
Austin Healey, Triumph, I guess there were never really any coupes, the TR7 maybe, but what a dog.
Alfa Romeo? I don't really know them all that well.
Thunderbird? Not a sports car, most have V8.

Roland

[rxter]

To your arguments Roland I generally agree. I would say that the autotrader sample is representative, but still rather small. Given the very small supply of these cars I don't think that if you found every one that is for sale you would have a large enough sample to derive any real stats on coupe v cab or options lists. Maybe when the cars were 5 years old, but not any more.

The only 2 parameters that allow price modeling with any hope of prediction are 1) mileage, and 2) condition. These 2 factors are highly, but not completely, related. I've seen a couple of 60ishK cars that can't sell for anywhere near other 60ishK cars. I imagine that this is due to the overall condition (paint, sun damage, deferred maint, etc.). We have previously debated "I'd rather buy a 100K car with clean maintenance than a 25K car that's not driven, etc." That's another example of my point.

Since condition is almost impossible to assess through an ad (other than "that one looks really nice vs. that one looks horrible") that leaves you with mileage. And we can see from your work that there is a fair amount of variability around that parameter as well.

[jeff968]

Well, despite what this specific sample says I'll still go with my observations formed over 14 years of 968 ownership that cabs go for more then coupes and 6 speeds more then tips. IMHO.
Jeff

[Cloud9...68]

"Well, despite what this specific sample says I'll still go with my observations formed over 14 years of 968 ownership that cabs go for more then coupes and 6 speeds more then tips. IMHO.
Jeff"

Yes, it's always appeared to me to be that way as well.

[flash]

with all due respect to the effort put forth, the data is useless - there is a large difference between "for sale" price and "sales price" - just ask anybody selling a car these days - my determination was based entirely on sales prices, and not asking prices

hardtops may well ask for similar numbers to cabs, but buyers won't and don't pay it - the same goes for tips vs manuals - of course there are varying numbers, and exceptions to everything, but as a rule of thumb, that's the way it goes - unfortunately we don't have access to the sales price of most cars to produce an accurate chart, and only have the asking price

as for the definition of a sports car, a race car is disqualified - a sports car is for fun, not for competition - whether or not somebody competes what started out as a sports car is irrelevant to its definition

there are very few sports cars made any more - i can only think of a handful - most of them have added so many comfort features, frills, and technology that they now fall into the sports exotic category

you don't get to change the rules just because nobody makes one anymore - it just means that the manufacturers have determined that they can't sell sports cars anymore and make money

but that may change - there is a movement to bring back the no frills sports car - the direction of the new 356 is along those lines - we'll see if they succeed

[ds968]

" There is a chance that the 968 Cabs will become much more valuable with time. That has certainly happened to a lot of sports cars. In many cases, like double or triple the value of the coupe form. "

So we can probably expect, in about twenty years, the 968 cabs will go for close to $ 300 as opposed to the $ 99 market value of the coupes at that time ..

[flash]

hmmm- let me help offset the deflation and time travel at the same time - if you sell now for $198 you would be selling for twice the car's value...............