61 replies to this topic

[Cloud9...68]

This topic came in in another thread, and we thought it might be better served as its own separate thread, so here it is. First, a little background on my own situation. I've owned my 968 for nearly seven years. My intention has never been to race it, but the previous owner gave it some nice suspension and brake mods, which make it serve as a decent starter occasional track day car, but it's still definitely very much a street car.

I started taking it to DEs near Fort Worth (a four hour drive) about four years ago, and even though I totally sucked at it at first, I was hooked. Then, about two years ago, I must have died and gone to heaven, because I found out about a track here in Austin which is actually a driving academy. It's called Driveway Austin, and its owned by retired racer Bill Dollahite. Driveway Austin takes a progressive approach to teaching, where you take the beginner course, which is taught on a flat, 0.7 mile, tight, highly technical part of the track. After doing a minimum of ten twenty-minute practice sessions over as long a period as you'd like, you take a test, and if you pass, you advance to the intermediate course, which introduces elevation changes and blind turns, and opens up a longer, more challenging part of the track. Then it's the same drill with the practice sessions, test, then on to the advanced (high speed) class, etc.

After taking the beginner class, I was, as usual, slow as molasses, but I was consistent. Then, after about eight sessions, things really started to click, and my lap times started dropping dramatically (from the mid 40's to just below 40s). But I quickly plateaued, so one day I mentioned to Bill that while I had made great progress, I seemed to be stuck. So he said, "Let me take it for a spin." I fully expected him to demolish my times, but to my amazement (and temporary delight), he was only able to beat my best time by about 0.2 sec. He told me that while the car is decently set up, it just doesn't have the torque to pull it out of the turns, and that it simply can't be driven significantly faster than I'm driving it.

To me, since I don't plan to, and can't afford to, race competitively anytime soon, the whole fun of the track driving experience is the sense of progressing, of mastering new skills, and continuing to improve my lap times. Having a car that I was already able to out-drive just sucked all the fun out of it.

So, my immediate thought was that I need to significantly modify my car, possibly turning it into a dedicated track car. But I ran into two significant obstacles with this idea. First, my 968 is really a nice car, too nice to beat up at the track. The short, technical stuff I had done so far mainly took a toll on the tires, and not much else, but I was afraid the more advanced, high speed material would be a different story. The other major show-stopper was the cost. I started adding up in my head the cost of the mods I would need to give me a car I could continue to "grow into": I would need more horsepower, which means boost (Flash's supercharger showed up on the scene just as I was in the throes of these ruminations), which would mean a complete engine rebuild, plus, since mine is a '92, new rods, which means pulling the crank and re-balancing everything as a unit. Yikes! Probably $10K in the engine alone. And all for maybe another 75 hp (a great addition for the street, but Flash himself insisted the unit wasn't designed for track use). And the turbos that exist seem to cost even more.

And then add the cost of the proper suspension mods (starting with coil-overs), seats, chassis brace, exhaust, and maybe a more track-oriented LSD. And of course I'd have to pull A LOT of weight out of the car, which can also get expensive. And I couldn't get past the fact that doing all this would turn a fabulous street car into an uncomfortable, expensive, single-purpose toy.

This is when the realization struck me that for me to begin enjoying the track experience again, my best option would probably be to sell the 968, and use the proceeds from the sale to build a track toy out of something that wasn't nearly as "nice" a car as my 968. I was thinking a 2nd gen Toyota MR2, a car that can be had very cheaply, is relatively cheap to modify, has nearly unlimited potential, and is hundreds of pounds lighter than the 968. Basically, it would be a car that I wouldn't care if I "ruined" by rendering it barely streetable, as its main purpose would be as a track toy. Sadly, I'd be giving up my beloved 968, but I hardly ever drive it anyway (I don't even use a car to commute).

So, that's my story. I'd be interested in hearing what others have planned for their 968s, especially those who have been bitten by the track bug like I have. If somebody can talk me into a scenario which includes keeping the 968 while achieving the goals I stated above, without breaking the bank (I'm just a humble engineer raising a family of four on my humble salary), I'm all ears.

Edited by Cloud9...68, 30 January 2011 - 08:34 PM.

[craigawoodman]

Hi,

I started like you dabbling in a bit of circuit racing for fun. The inital mods were very limited, upgraded brake fluid.

Once you get a hang for the car and have reached the first limit - then you have to go looking for the next change to make both the car and driver quicker.

Step 1 - get some track tyres. At some point, the tyres will be a limiting factor. There is a big difference between R Spec tyres and street tyres, and another step to twin groove slicks, then another step to full slicks. Possibly look at wider tyres and different offsets. Track tyres do go off however, so they definately have a use by date to be effective.

Stainless steel brake lines. These improve brake feel and consistency.

Suspension and Brakes - look at suspension mods and brake improvements. You will make more time through suspension and brakes than chasing power.

Alignment and camber/castor settings. Getting the steering right will not only improve times, but also reduce wear on tyres.

LSD

Seat and Harness - being more secure will reduce times.

Finally power.

As per previous posts, it is not all about power. You have to be able to drive and control the car and be confident. I don't think I could ever be confident racing a new 911 GT3 RS - it is just way too much money to have an excursion into the armco.

Mods done to my car so far;

18" rims (235 front and 285 rears) plus 21mm spacers
Big Black brakes (fronts only) and brake proportioning valve to suit
Front strut brace
Lower front strut brace
Camber plates
Larger sway bars
Additional Oil Cooler
Radiator ducting
LSD
Coil-overs and suspension lowered and car corner weighted
Harness (5 point) and race seat
Turbo RS front and rear spoilers
Lightweight flywheel and heavy duty clutch

About to be done;

Supercharger and Intercooler
Racers Edge Suspension and Torque Tube upgrade
RSBarn Hi-Flow Cat and Cat back exhaust
Programmable ECU
Engine Rebuild

I have not stripped weight out of the car (it has a full interior and is road registered). The car weighed 1,358kg with half a tank of fuel on-board and no driver.

When looking at the cost of modifying the car, my wife asked how much it would cost to get another car that would perform as well - over here it would be around $170k for a Gen 1 997 GT3. So for around a third of the price of a GT3, I will have a car that is quicker than one. Naturally aspirated it is quicker than most cars on a twisty track and punches well above its weight. Even on long tracks more suited to power it still punches aboev its weight (about second last in terms of top spped down the straight, but in the top third of lap times). The 968 carries as much or more corner spped than a modern 911.

Parts are relatively cheap, nd if you were to bin it in a big way, you can buy a complete car fairly cheap and transfer most of the go faster goodies.

I think that a 968 with around 350 to 375hp would be a very difficult car to beat.

When it grows up, it wants to be a Turbo RS of course and like its owner, it likes standing up to the bullies and pretenders to show what an underdog can do. The 968 shows that you do not have to have the deepest pockets to be the fastest. It really does punch well above its weight.

[flash]

i think a problem that seems obvious here is the concern over budget - for a track car, you have to be able to write off the car - eventually you will destroy it beyond repair - it's just the nature of the beast - the odds are stacked against you - if you aren't in a position to do that with any given car, then that car is not the right one

so, i would look to find something extremely inexpensive, that has already been largely set up, and run that - this will cost less overall, but likely cost more up front than starting with a car you already own and getting it ready for basic track duty

this will of course put you right back in the place of thinking the car is too slow, as what you likely to find in that area will be smaller underpowered cars

i think i would look at a miata - it is small and light, easily found for a good price, available in all forms of setup, and has a wide variety of aftermarket options - there are also a lot of classes in which you could compete, and move up as you and the car continued to develop

but, if you can accept the idea of losing the car someday, then the 968 could easily be a very satisfying car - you can definitely add the power that would make it a lot of fun, though you would likely not find a class in which to run with that power - if you were just looking fora DE car though, the doors are wide open

i have been wrestling with this same problem - to make it the car that would satisfy me would involve a lot more power and a lot less weight - i just don't enjoy dragging around a car this big and heavy - i constantly remember how much faster i was driving in the MGB, and thinking that was too slow - i really think i may just bit the bullet and go open wheel

[Cloud9...68]

Craig,

Where I'm getting stuck is that the car is already decently set up in the suspension department - even in my novice driving state, I have already had the thrilling experience of leading what should be far more capable cars than mine - Cayman, Lotus Elise, for example, into turns, and losing them by the time the given turn's execution is complete. But the thrill is short-lived - they alway quickly reel me in and blow past me like I'm standing still by the time the track straightens out. And the 968 is REALLY going to struggle once I get into the next part of Driveway Austin's curriculum, which involves - gasp, elevation changes. Unfortunately, this means going uphill, as well as down .

Flash's point about the budgetary considerations is paramount. Every dollar I spend upgrading the 968 is a fresh dollar that has to come from either my earnings or savings. Whereas, if I sell the 968, I can use the stored value (such as it is) in the car to create something purpose-built for my needs, that I wouldn't care about beating up. And I'm not looking for a fire-breathing monster - something with around 300 hp at 2200 lb or so would do nicely. Which is what keeps bringing me back to the MR2 - there's a shop in north Texas that will put a 300 hp turbo motor and LSD-equipped tansaxle, including labor, into ones' NA MR2 (which can be had for as little as $2K) for a total of $4500, leaving a lot left over for suspension mods, roll cage, seats, tires, etc. Seems hard to beat...

[craigawoodman]

The 968 does not mind elevation changes. Because it handles so well, it will be able to carry more speed than 911's, etc. When the track is twisty and changes elevation, it helps us.

I got pissed off at Bathurst, where up Mountain straight, more powerful cars would catch me, but as soon as there was a corner, I would overtake them. The challenge is to build a car that will not only go fast in a straight line, but carry high corner speeds and have excellent braking. Only if you get all right will the lap time come down.

As for handling - the larger sway bars make a huge difference in terms of keeping the car flat through corners. I can pull well over 1g when cornering.

It is a slippery slope, but be aware, whatever you have, the desire for just that little bit more - will always be there. Much better to put the effort into something you love than something you will discard as soon as there is a slightly better option.

If you strip a 968 - it should come down around the 1,200kg mark with a cage.

The wheelbase, the centre of gravity and the polar interia all will impact on handling. A MR2 - being a mid-engined car, will also not be as progressive during break-away.

Either way, have fun and drive the door handles off the thing. It is a hoot to get out there and have a go.

Craig

[Cloud9...68]

Thanks for the encouraging words. As I look more carefully through your first post, I'm scratching my head over the fact that your car isn't that different from mine. The main things I lack are tire size (mine are 225/45/17 in front, and 255/40/17 in back), camber plates, the coil-overs (I realize that's a biggie), the lightweight flywheel, and racing seat. I have M030 sway bars, stiffer-than-stock front springs, huge, 4-piston 944 Turbo S calipers, Zimmerman cross-drilled rotors, Bilstein yellows in the back, my car has been corner balanced, and I have a Guard torque-biasing differential. Plus, I have an aftermarket chip, and the airbox mod.

And yet, my car is just plain slow, both in my hands, and in the hands of a professional driver. But the fact that it's slow doesn't surprise me - it drives about as I would expect an early-90's technology car with a ~13:1 lb/hp ratio should drive. What anmazes me is hearing stories like yours, along with the other racers on this site. You guys' ability to get so much speed out of your 968s just seems like alchemy to me! Shouldn't be possible, and yet you are living proof

[flash]

the flywheel makes a HUGE difference - it's like it's a completely different car

camber plates are not that big of an issue - you really don't need all that much camber since you have the lower brace

bigger tires will make a big difference in that you get to stay on the power longer, which raises your entry and exit speeds, thereby lowering overall times

i don't know how heavy the wheels you are running are, but that is a big area of concern too

[rxter]

Back to the original question. Mine was always meant to be what it was designed to be - a pretty well sorted streetable sports car. I have only added a couple of braces and she's there already far as I am concerned. I love driving it every time.

[Monstrous4Banger]

Cloud:

View on Vimeo.

little bit of what a boosted 3.0 is capable of, albeit in a 951 tub. Pay particular attention at 7:19

Edited by Monstrous4Banger, 31 January 2011 - 06:15 PM.

[flash]

that dash does not look like a 951 - what the heck?

[Monstrous4Banger]

Yeah gotta watch Flash. Watch, and see who joins the party at 7:19. Ownage.

edit: The audio track isnt so great, maximum ownage at 8:45.

Edited by Monstrous4Banger, 31 January 2011 - 07:24 PM.

[flash]

i saw the 944 jump in there - i thought the car the camera was in was a 951 though - so that was a different car then chasing a 951?

[Monstrous4Banger]

Yeah the car with the camera in it is a 997tt. The car in front, that gets smoked by a 951 in the straight is a GT2. IIRC. In front of the GT2 I believe was a 964t or 930. Mwahahaha slow little beetles. Who in their right mind would shell out 200k for that? 911=more money than brains, 968=more brains than money. There I said it.

Hard to beat the economy, and power to weight bang for the buck of the MR2......but its not a porsche. Apples, and oranges really. I would dread to do any real touring in the MR2. The 968 could do both really well. Its really hard to beat when set up properly. My experience isnt on the track admittedly. For a street car tho....I still havent found anything that is just plain better in every way. Regardless what year it was made, or how much it cost. Its relative, and very subjective really. Just MO. Dont sell the 968 short just yet tho. Think things out thoroughly. Im actually having a similar PITA from my range rover. Im over that thing though. Its no Porsche. Im actually thinking about a cayenne turbo as a replacement.Uncle Ferdinand's been good to me over the years.

Edited by Monstrous4Banger, 31 January 2011 - 08:53 PM.

[steve g]

This is a very timely topic and I enjoy hearing where other folks are going with their cars.

I also appreciate the guidance I've received from several 968forums members whom I've pinged over the past few weeks with questions.

I purchased my 51K mile 1994 968 last summer with the intent of making it into a DE to E Class Club Racer.

I'm planning a full suspension upgrade starting this year.

This winter, this month, I'll be installing new M030 swaybars, Moton Clubsports and new springs, and since I am keeping the torsion bars to be legal in PCA E Class, making the appropriate adjustments (still havent quite figured out the best way to do that). I'll also probably change out other stock rubber suspension components with new.

The next phase is more complex and I've been working on this wish list for a while and now and my plan over the next year, is to add the other important peripherals including camber plates, A-arm spherical bearing bushing kit, front sway bar drop-link bushings, Front sway bar end bushings, Front sway bar, inner bushings, Rear banana arm spherical bushings, inner and outer spring plate bushings, Torsion tube carrier block mounts, Torsion tube carrier solid bushings.

Further down the road, LSD, Racing Seats/Harnesses, Roll Cage and all that other stuff needed to safely legally club race.

So what does my car want to be when it grows up ? It wants to be the best handling 968 that it can be that looks just like a stock 968.

[Cloud9...68]

Monstrous,

There's no doubt a properly boosted 968 is a truly potent machine, capable of rivaling cars costing twice as much. But for me, turbocharging my 968 is WAY beyone my capabilty and budget. Plus, how would I ever get it to pass emissions? I know it's possible, and obviously several people have been successful with it, but it seems like there are an awful lot of horror stories as well.

In my case, I really don't have a lot of interest in racing my 968. I'd like to race someday, but right now, with my single salary supporting a wife (who owns a business that's showing signs of turning the corner, but is a long way from being seriously profitable) and two teenagers, auto racing for me might as well be Learjet racing. No can do.

I'd just like a track day car to use to learn the art of racing, which I could then do when the kids are gone in a few years and the house is paid off. I'm not really all that competitive by nature; I get plenty of enjoyment from challenging myself to improve my technique and lap times. And here's where I keep coming back to three problems with the 968. First, it's potential seems limited. Yes, I know I can improve the handling, but at some point, I'm going to have to add power (Crag's target of 350 hp would be perfect), which is very difficult and expensive with this engine. Second, as I said above, the cost of doing the proper mods, which would have to come out of my salary or savings, is quite high - on the order of $10-20K, when you include the eventual engine rebuild. And third, my 968 is a really nice example; I cringe at the thought of beating it up at the track.

I keep coming back to my best option being to find a good home for the 968 to live out its days as a great, all-purpose street GT (rxter said it very well in his post), and using the proceeds toward a purpose-built, but barely streetable (enough to get me to my vanpool's pick-up point) track car. I honestly don't need a nice street car at this point - I don't commute to work, and we have plenty of other cars in the family to choose from. After gettng a taste of track driving, I'd be happy driving a Yugo on the street the rest of my life if I could get back to the track.

[968Oz]

I have just grappled with the same problem as cloud and the conclusion I came to was to move on from my 968 into a already well set-up and proven track car. After a year or so of driving my 968 at track days, essentially in standard form, i decided I wanted to get a bit more serious. Although I don't want to go all out to win a class I want a car that's competent and that I don't need to think about upgrades all the time. I'm time-poor and while tinkering is fun I've reached a stage were I really just want to drive these cars properly. If I get to the stage were I want one year to go for event or class wins then the car needs to be there with me. My 968, like Cloud's is in great shape inside and out although its got a lot of miles on it. To make it into a decent club-level race car would take a lot of work. As I can't do the work myself (skill, knowledge, time) that means a lot of dollars. And do I really want to do that to this near pristine example? And then the way our club's rules are set up its very difficult to get a 968 to class winning level because of limits to the modifications, power and weight. If you want to go all out in the mods then there is the open and modified classes but then the monetary equation gets even more serious.
So in the end I bought a car that won its class last year. It was rebuilt as a club racer 2 years ago by my mechanic who I know is an utter perfectionist, and the previous owner spared no expense as he was aiming to win. Its stripped out, has a cage and all the work that will allow it to stay in C class.
I love my '68 but I hardly drove it except for track days. Most of my other driving involves kids, which is just not practical in the '68. So as much as I'd like to keep her, I just don't have the room and I'd rather someone else love and use her like she deserves.

And the other thing that influenced my decision is consideration of what would happen should I decide to sell the track car for some reason. I bought a 911. There is always a market for a well sorted 911 and prices are likely to stay relatively good. I'm not sure the same is true for modified 968s. CSs still command premiums but i think they are exceptional in that regard.

Edited by 968Oz, 01 February 2011 - 12:02 PM.

[flash]

i think somebody needs to drive a car with the SC kit on it - it's not the horsepower but the torque that really makes the difference - the 35% gain of torque is huge, and may well be all you need - if you were willing to take the car off the street, there is more power available too

that being said, i have always said that the kit is not for track - by that, i mean racing - DE events don't count as track in my book - you aren't pushing to the limits there - if you've never raced, you probably don't get that concept, but once you do, it becomes painfully obvious - there would be nothing stopping you from running the kit at DE events

as for the rods, that is a question mark, but we suspect that it is an rpm thing, and that the failures are stretching in nature, not compressing, and so the self limiting factors of the software would likely keep you out of trouble there

by the way, the kit will be smog legal - we are in process of getting the certification now

but, do what you think is best - i am going through the same process - i am not sure yet what track toy i will end up with

[Cloud9...68]

Yes, the SC is very tempting, because more low- to mid-range torque is exactly what the car lacks; it's not so much top-end power that I'm concerned about. Although, as you said, the rods are something of a concern, even in non-competitive driving. But then I start ruminating about the need to rebuild the head, and then go forward with some suspension mods to bring the chassis back into balance with the new-found capability under the hood. So, I'd still be looking at at least $10K, probably more like $15K, by the time I did everything, including the chassis brace (are these still available?), coil-overs, seats, lightweight flywheel (is that compatible with the SC?), a more track-oreinted LSD, etc. I do agree that this could be a VERY nice package, though.

But to 968Oz's point, I'd then be subjecting my nearly-pristine 968 to the abuse of the track on a regular basis. And for not much more that what I think the 968 is worth (at least after I get done fixing the things found in the PPI), I could build a track car that would probably be even more capable, plus have more potential for further improvement, than the above-configured 968.

But then, I'd no longer have my 968 . Oh, well, one thing at a time. The first order of business is the get the issues on my 968 fixed; I've alread started on the clutch removal. Underneath my car is going to be my home-away-from-home for the next many weeks, for sure...

Edited by Cloud9...68, 01 February 2011 - 02:39 PM.

[flash]

it really boils down to how much you love the car - i have over $100k in mine, and i keep going

[aslet]

Maybe take a look at buying a used 944 Spec car. They can be gotten for a good deal. They also will be race ready and you could get into some races and not break the bank.

I may have missed this, but I hear a lot about power and suspension. These should be secondary in a race/DE car to safety. If you want a car that will be mainly for track, you need a cage, seats and harnesses.

Also, as others have said, track is track and there are no guarantees. I blew two 944 motors in a season, sucked, but I had to pay to get them fixed.