11 replies to this topic

[Cloud9...68]

This has been a difficult decision, as I've had a lot of fun with my 968, but it just doesn’t get driven enough to justify keeping it. We have amassed a stable of five cars, and the insurance, especially with a 16-year-old new driver in the family, is killing us. So, we need to cull the herd, and unfortunately, logic has to win out over emotion, so I’m afraid that after nearly six years of ownership, it’s time to part ways with my beloved 968.

Cosmetically, the car is in fantastic shape. The body is a 9.5 out of 10, as is the interior. If it were a human, it would have a vitamin D deficiency, owing to how little time it spends in the sun. Mechanically, it’s almost as good. I took it to an experienced Porsche/BMW mechanic this weekend, who put it on a lift, and found all the major mechanical components (ball joints, tie rod ends, wheel bearings, etc.) to be in excellent condition.

But I’m really struggling with how much time and money I should put into the car prior to putting it up for sale. It has 115,000 well-cared for miles on it. The only things I know of that are in need of attention are a slightly weeping oil pan gasket, a slightly leaking power steering pump, and a leaking rear main seal. The belts were replaced in March of 2008, so it’s coming up on the three-year mark. As is, I’m guessing the car is worth in the neighborhood of $12,000. With a modest amount of money and effort, however, it could easily be brought into basically pristine, supercharger-ready condition, if I were to do the following:

• Pull the oil pan and replace the rod bearings while replacing the gasket
• Replace the rear main seal
• Throw in a new clutch disk (mine isn’t exhibiting any issues, but it has a lot of miles on it)
• Replace or rebuild the power steering pump
• Replace the belts
• And the biggie, pull the head and have it rebuilt

With the above, it would essentially be a “new” 1992 968. Plus it has a lot of nice upgrades, which you can see in my signature.

So my bottom line question is this: given its age and mileage, is its value pegged, no matter how much work and money I invest in it? Or is someone likely to pay significantly more for a car that clearly needs no immediate work, unlike so many car of its vintage?

[flash]

unfortunately putting all that time and money into it won't raise the resale value all that much - it always comes down to the buyer's desire for that particular car - while obviosuly a well maintained and recently maintained car indeed has value over one that wasn't maintained as well or as recently, the difference is less than $2k

the thing that might make the difference though is the time required to sell it - a well maintained car will go faster, even if it doesn't reap the investment

before you sell it though, think long and hard, and go drive other cars you have and make sure that you want those more than the 968 - you own the car, and you can usually get preclusive coverage so the 16 year old doesn't have that much of an effect - also, you can probably "non-op" the car for a while and eliminate that cost altogether

but i understand space and all that, so it is what it is - just be sure, as there is no going back - the chinese say "wait on any big decision for three days"

[rxter]

You sure it was the Chinese who said that?

If you decide to sell clean it up and let her go. Don't put any significant $ into it. I agree with Bob that you'll never see any of it back. My fleet was killing me too so I decided to buy another 968 first, then sell the other one - ooph - you can hear the SO now "Are you crazy???"

Having just been through this sale I would suggest that $12K is optimistic, even with all the work you describe.

Back to the proverb - don't let logic win. What's logical about a 4-door sedan, or a car that gets better mileage, or costs less to maintain? I submit to you the following bit of logic - what I call the ultimate expression of an analysis of utility.

X = $Spent per Mile (not including insurance or fuel)
F = Fun had per Mile (simple scale of 1 to 10)

I've done this for all of our cars for the past 4 years or so and what I found was this.

Cheapest cars to own per mile (again I have excluded fuel and insurance because they are too close to worry about really)

#1 - 1996 Celica ST - $.25 per mile - even though I put almost $10K into purchase and maintenance before it croaked
#2 - 2002 Honda Van - $.54 per mile
#3 - 1992 BMW 325- - $.70 per mile
#4 - 2004 Mazda RX8 - $.72 per mile
#5 - 2006 Honda Civic - $.80 per mile (but will go well lower than this as the miles pile up - figure this one to move up to #1 if the kid keeps the shiny side up)
#6 - 1993 Porsche 968 - $2.50 per mile
#7 - 1994 Porsche 968 - $10.00 per

Smiles per mile, or feel goods per hour, or however you want to measure it, flip those results almost perfectly. So when you normalize its just not that clear any more.

I'll not bore you with the math here, but the RX8 is by far the cheapest car per smile I have, the van the most expensive, and the 968 is in the middle somewhere - it will catch up as I put a few miles on it.

So, done with the math and on to the logic.

Our mental well being is at least as important as the number in our bank account or how dry the wife's DD stays If playing with these cars helps keep our minds stable and focused, thereby allowing us to be good husbands, friends, fathers, and citizens, then logic dictates that we keep them, maintain them, and drive them.

The defense rests.

[SHA-JR968]

If you want to sell the car you should not spend any further $ on her, maybe apart from some detailing.

I spent about 2/3 of the sales value over the last 2 years on fixing small things, doing preventive maintenance and some upgrades before I decided to sell my previous 968. If I wouldn't have spent the money I would have got maybe 10-20% less for the car.

Edited by SHA-JR968, 03 November 2010 - 12:12 AM.

[Darryl]

+1 on what everyone has already said...if you're going to sell, sell as-is. It's certainly nice enough as-is to sell (and drive) and the next owner can decide when and how much to spend on making it nicer. The problem with the 968 and other cars that are "cheap" to buy and expensive to maintain is that they tend to not get any nicer. Then you end up parting out what would be a decent car overall if you're willing to invest a little TLC. This mindset is exactly why I decided to resurrect my Coupe rather than just let it go down hill. Hopefully the next owner will be enthusiastic enough to want to continue its upkeep.

- Darryl

[Cloud9...68]

Thanks for the insightful inputs. One of the hardest parts about deciding to sell the 968 is not being part of this community anymore (I know, I can always drop in and visit, but it won't be the same as a former 968 owner).

So you guys wouldn't recommend fixing anything, not even the leaks? I have 4-1/2 weeks of vacation I need to take by the end of the year, and I was going to spend much of it getting my car ready for sale. Fixing leaks is very time-consuming, but not expensive, parts-wise, so I thought it was worth doing, but it sounds like I should just leave it alone. The leaks really aren't very bad.

As far as my reasons for selling, there are a few unique things about my circumstances beyond the financial and space issues that make it the only decision, both rational and emotional. First, what I REALLY want is a more-or-less dedicated track car, and the 968 is just way too nice of a car to "ruin" in this way. I'd like to use the proceeds of the sale from the 968 to build either a 2nd generation Toyota MR2, or maybe a 951, for this purpose, but still leave it, at least initially, street legal (if not comfortable). This is why I would like to maximize the selling price of the 968 (though it sounds like this is wishful thinking on my part), because I don't have a whole lot of free cash from other sources to use toward a track toy.

Second, I ride in a vanpool to work. As great as this is, it means that I need to leave a car outside in the blistering Texas heat all day at the vanpool pick-up point. I'm currently using our 2003 minivan for this purpose, but I'd also like to get rid of this car. But if I sell it, it would leave me with no other cars I'd want to leave outside (not under a cover - it's too much of a hassle to put it on and off each day). So, a barely-streetable track car, which I wouldn't mind leaving outside, would kill several birds with one stone, including cutting our stable of cars by one.

Finally, my taste of track driving has killed off all desire to drive fast on public roads. I'm not alone in this - I remember Dan Gurney saying in an interview while he was racing that he drove a Pinto for his street car! Basically, owning a "nice, fun" street car just doesn't fit into my current situation. And using the 968 to just putter around town seems like a waste.

So, hopefully I'll be posting the 968 for sale soon, starting with this site. There are a few critical things I do need to fix (a leak in the AC, the rear hatch is stuck closed, and I need to replace a pair of wheel caps), but these shouldn't take too long. That is, unless I need to totally dismantle the back of the car to get the hatch unstuck!

Edited by Cloud9...68, 03 November 2010 - 08:36 AM.

[968Syncro]

I think one of the best ways to can create value for the buyer, and keep the asking price higher, is to present the car honestly with as much detail as possible about it's status. So if I was buying your car, I'd conclude this one is lower risk than many other examples, because the owner has taken care of the essential things, and knows the history and status of everything. Sometimes that is more important to reduce risk than seeing a list of recent repairs. A long list of recent repairs always raises the question about what else could be wrong. A buyer presenting a list of what should be examined for maintenance in the next year or so suggests a credible and honest seller. I almost always "buy the seller", not just "buy the car". And when I sell a car, I behave like I've suggested above.

Roland

[SHA-JR968]

So you guys wouldn't recommend fixing anything, not even the leaks? I have 4-1/2 weeks of vacation I need to take by the end of the year, and I was going to spend much of it getting my car ready for sale. Fixing leaks is very time-consuming, but not expensive, parts-wise, so I thought it was worth doing, but it sounds like I should just leave it alone. The leaks really aren't very bad.

If you can fix the leaks by yourself without too much financial efforts then fix it. I personally would prefer buying car which is no leaking.

But my feeling is that you maybe should sell another car ...

[Johannvb]

Cloud,

You can most likely cure the power steering leak by draining the fluid and replacing it with clean fluid. Make sure you buy enough to drain the system twice. Once you have drained and refilled the system make sure you install new crush washers on the banjo bolt, this wil also help keep the fluids in.

Replacing the oilpan gasket is a huge job. You need to drop the cross member, and that means redoing your allignment because you have to disconnect the A-arms.

RMS is a big job too and as long as both these leaks are not leaving puddles on you garrage floor I think you can leave it as is.

Good luck with the sale, I know what you are going through.

[Chris Vais]

Some advice from a different perspective. When my kid turned 16, rather than let him drive a car that my wife or I depended upon or wished to preserve, we purchased a car for his exclusive use. It was a cash purchase, so I didn't have to carry comprehensive insurance. I told the kid you wreck it you walk until you have saved enough money to repair or replace it. The first words out of his mouth were " you mean the insurance compnay won't buy me another if I have an accident" I told him that was correct and moreover neither would his parents. As a result he drove the car wisely and safely because it was his responsibility to set things right if he didn't. You just know that a young driver is going to hit something at some point, which he did or suffer a mechanical setback because he wasn't paying attention, which he did. Kids need to understand that part of being a responsible person is to take ownership whether its your school work, work product, or mistakes.

As for the 968, I'd fix the leaks if it can be done easily and inexpensively, but is all I would do.

[Cloud9...68]

Johann,

I've recently completely drained and refilled the power steering fluid (DexronIII ATF) multiple times, although I'm not sure what you mean by the banjo bolt. I'll take a look...

I hear you about the oil pan gasket; I replaced the engine mounts a few years ago. Don't ask me why I didn't do it then . Neither the oil pan not the rear main seal are leaving puddles on the floor, just small drips, which are probably very typical for a car of this age on its original gaskets. Still debating on this one...

Chris,

You sound like a good parent. My wife and I bought our daughter a 2004 BMW 325i for way below blue book, and we like that the car is extremely safe, both actively and passively, but your idea of removing the comprehensive on it is definitely food for thought. I like the way it puts the onus of dealing with the consequences of hitting something on them.

Thanks again to all the insights and suggestions. And if any of you know of anyone interested in a beautiful, well-cared for 968 in a rare color (and who doesn't mind a little shifter buzz ), please send them my way.

[Johannvb]

THe Banjo bolt is the hollow bolt used to secure the pipes to the pump. There are two copper washers that go on both side of the pipe's round connector which the bolt goes through. From what I have been told you can only use the washers once.